MI4CS Picks A Candidate, But Was The Process Fair?

Gary Glenn of the American Family Association won MI4SC (Michigan for a Conservative Senator) Straw Poll today. The question is will Freedom Works which was working with MI4SC now help fund his campaign or or will that money go to a more viable candidate? If that money goes to a more viable candidate, will Glenn's campaign manager follow that money? He has already switched campaigns once already.

There has been much controversey over this process.  Many have thought this process to be rigged for Gary Glenn from the beginning especially since one of the MI4CS decision makers was Randy Bishop who was heavily involved with the Gary Glenn for Senate campaign.  Mr. Bishop issued a statement that he was officially withdrawing from MI4CS late last year.  However through out a good portion of 2011 he worked with  many other members of MI4CS including Cindy Gamrat a recent transplant from Indiana, who is the leader of MI4CS. 

It appears Ms. Gamrat changed her views of what the responsiblities of the Tea Party were once she moved to Michigan.

In June of 2010 Ms. Gamrat was quoted by Indiana News Center Now "I don't know if it can get any more grass roots than what it is," says Huntington Tea Party founding member Cindy Gamrat. "There's no hierarchy, there's no one paying us or telling us to do every tea party."

Indiana News Center Now also went on to report:

"Tea Party members pride themselves on their core values of individual liberty and freedom of choice. The group does not endorse candidates, preferring to educate the public on platform issues instead. But if the movement were to become a formal political party, that would mean endorsing candidates and removing the free choice principles members stand for.
While Gamrat does not see the movement becoming a serious alternative to the established political scene, she does see it has a way to encourage political awareness and debate. Two American values she considers crucial to democracy.

"If you asked me a year ago where we'd be today, I would never have dreamed that," said Gamrat. "

In addition some of MI4CS’s members it appears have resorted to dirty politics to move forward their agenda at any cost. Members associated with the group have misused the organization for their own political purposes. The leaders of MI4CS originally claimed that they would be transparent in the affairs of MI4CS, but they have been much less than transparent, keeping the names of participating groups a secret, and not disclosing other pertinent information pertaining to the groups activities. Some groups are not taking part; while other groups in the state were told that they were not allowed too participate in MI4CS, because they did not fit the "criteria" set forth by the leadership of MI4CS.

One group called ACES, or Americans for Constitutional Enforcement was not allowed to take part due to the fact that they had members in Wisconsin, as well as in Michigan. MI4CS requires groups to be solely based in Michigan. ACES is based in Iron Mountain, in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
ACES has been is existence for sixteen years, and this may be because they do not endorse any particular candidate, and would not have served MI4Cs's cause.

The MI4CS list of criteria to join the organization and take part in their vetting, and straw poll was never made public by MI4CS, it was leaked by an unknown source. MI4CS purportedly only notified certain groups that met their so-called requirements for membership, and participation in their process. Other groups were left in clueless as to MI4CS's requirements, and not given any options for joining.

Exactly what is MI4CS’s criteria?
In a letter sent out some tea party members MI4CS revealed its criteria. 
“MI4CS TEA Party Involvement TEA Party groups participating in Michigan4ConservativeSenate must meet the following qualifications unless otherwise approved by the MI4CS District Communication Representatives:

A TEA Party/912/ Liberty group with a mission or purpose of promoting the Constitution of the United States and/or Conservative Principles through various avenues such as rallies, meetings, education, projects, and activities.

-A TEA Party/912/Liberty group which was started in a grassroots manner by local people who have local decision making control over all aspects of the group and is not influenced or controlled or regulated by a state or national organization.

-A group that is not affiliated in membership with any current political party such as Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, etc.

-An Active TEA Party/912 or liberty group which is active through meetings, rallies, events, projects, or group activities

-An active group for at least 3 months by Nov. 12th, 2011 (the meeting at Dewitt). -A group with at least 10 active members.

-A group that is not a chapter of a national organization separate from the TEA Parties such as but not limited to American’s for Prosperity, Campaign for Liberty, Ace, etc.

- A group that has an avenue of members holding leadership of the TEA Party group accountable through such ways as annual voting, communication at general meetings or events, etc”

The reports are that certain individual members affiliated with MI4CS have resorted to unlawful harassment of persons who have spoken out in disagreement MI4CS‘s methods, or simply have opposed the candidate of choice, chosen by MI4CS’s members. These members then chose to spread the personal information of those who oppose them across Facebook, information like personal phone numbers, maybe even addresses of those in opposition to the groups agenda. This so other MI4CS activists can take part in the harassment also.

Some of the victims of this harassment have been looking into getting personal protective orders against theses MI4CS members engaged in this unlawful activity. One person who shall remain nameless, reports receiving harassing and even threatening phone calls at his/her private home phone. These incidents have been referred to the State of Michigan Attorney Generals office for investigation.

MI4CS has been losing members for some time as Tea Party groups have decided not to aid MI4CS in the coronation of their chosen candidate, or over other matters. Membership numbers are estimated at aprox. 50, but due to the lack of transparency coming from MI4CS leaders, no one knows for sure how many groups are still in MI4CS, and it appears they don’t want people to know how many, or what groups are still in MI4CS.

Could it be that MI4CS does not want people to know what groups are in, and what groups are out?
It appears that MI4CS is a tool created by a few people in order too co-opt other Tea Party groups for their own political agendas. Many of the people associated with MI4CS are supporting Gary Glenn. Gary Glenn is also the Director of the American Family Association of Michigan. It is unknown if Gary Glenn was involved or aware of the shenanigans of some of the MI4CS members or not, but there was a failure to react and take action to stop them.

MI4CS may have been originally formed with honest intentions, but it is clear now that those involved with it have corrupted it beyond hope, and it might be in everyone’s best interest that the group be shut down for good.

MI4CS claims that their mission is to “To ensure the United States senatorial representation of Michigan reflects conservative values and strict adherence with the Constitution of the United States as worded and originally intended by the writers of this sacred document.”

Should a small handful of MI4CS’s members/groups choose and candidate for every Patriot and Tea Party group in Michigan? What about the voices of ‘We the People‘? That what the Tea Party is supposed to be about in the first place? A little yeast spoils the whole batch, and in the case of MI4CS, it appears this is the case. It is a shame that people have to take a perfectly good idea and ruin it because of their own selfish intentions.

Hoekstra finished in the top three of Saturday's poll but wasn't in the final round. That was whittled down to Glenn and Clark Durant.   The other candidates in the race include Randy Heckmann, Peter Konetchy, Scott Bowman and Chuck Marino.

The Republican winner of the August primary will face Stabenow in November.

Mitt Romney's National Co-Chair and Former Obama White House Chief of Staff's Brother Could Cost Michigan Millions

Raleigh’s state of the art studio in Pontiac, which opened only ten months ago, defaulted on its $630,000 bond payment on $18 million in state issued bonds that were part of the financing for the $80 million complex.

In an email to The Oakland Press, Michigan Department of Treasury spokesman Terry Stanton confirmed the studio was not able to make the $630,000 payment to the bondholders by Feb. 1. That forced the Michigan state employee’s pension fund, which invested in the studio in 2009, to make a $630,000 payment immediately, and put them on the hook for potentially millions more in payments in the future.

"The State of Michigan Retirement System (SMRS) entered into an agreement to guarantee the bonds, under the previous administration," Stanton wrote. Raleigh had made two previous payments in February and August of last year, but has not made required monthly escrow set-aside payments since October, according to an article that appeared in the Detroit News last month.

The impact of the default on the facility in Pontiac, Michigan is still unclear but it is not expected to affect other properties operated by Raleigh Studios – which bills itself as largest independent studio operator in the United States – located in Hollywood, Manhattan Beach, Playa Vista, Baton Rouge, Atlanta and Budapest.

The facility was the brainchild of Chairman and CEO Linden Nelson and investors Taubman Company founder A. Alfred Taubman, Walbridge CEO and Mitt Romney for President National Co-Chair John Rakolta Jr. and William Morris Endeavor Entertainment Co-CEO Ari Emanuel, whose brother is Rahm Emanual the Former Obama White House Chief of Staff and current Mayor of Chicago.

 "It is uncertain whether the SMRS will have to make any future payments, as the company's ability to fulfill its responsibility for the bond payments depends on the future use/leasing of the facility."

SAYING GOODBYE TO THE GENERAL LEE:

 This week NASCAR banned one of its popular institutions, "The General Lee," a 1969 Dodge Charger which was featured in the hit television series and movie, "The Dukes of Hazzard."

 NASCAR said "The image of the Confederate flag is not something that should have an official role in our sport as we continue to reach out to new fans and make NASCAR more inclusive. 'The General Lee' has a Confederate Battle Flag on its roof."

 The Dodge Charger will not be allowed to serve as a pace car at the Phoenix Sprint Cup race in March.
Former Congressman Ben Jones (D-GA), who starred as "Cooter" in the TV series, is condemning NASCAR and said "This is an extraordinary insult to rural Southerners, who are NASCAR's oldest and most fervent fan base, and it sends a message against inclusion and against the need for diversity.

 "Many of us who are descended from ancestors who fought for the South see this as a crude dishonoring of our kinfolks and our heritage.

"'The Dukes of Hazzard' remains a beloved classic television show which is watched by Americans of all races and regions and is watched internationally as an upbeat reflection of the American Spirit. .
 . .
"As a cast member and the owner of several 'General Lees', I can attest that the car and our show reflect the very best of American values, and that Hazzard County was a place where racism was not tolerated. This action by NASCAR is a provocative and unnecessary over-reaction to a problem that doesn't exist."

 NASCAR says "The General Lee" can return if the flag is painted over.

Chris Christie has Washington Posts Jonathan Capehart Running With His Tail Between His Legs

The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart and New Jersey Governor Chris Christie were engaged in a heated debate regarding same sex marriage on MSNBC's Morning Joe Thursday.

Capehart aggressively tried to nail Christie, the Governor fired back, “I used to be a prosecutor. I don’t know if you did too, but I’m not going to be cross-examined by you this morning”

The topic that started the heated debate was Christie’s recent veto of New Jersey’s same sex marriage bill with Capehart challenging the Governor’s contention that his view on this matter is the same as Barack Obama’s.

“The key difference between you and the President is while you support putting the civil rights of a minority up for a public referendum, the President is not in favor, is certainly not in favor of that,” said Capehart.

“Has he said that, Jonathan?” asked Christie. “I haven’t heard him say that.”

Capehart did not respond which led Christie to further respond, “The President is silent on this like he’s silent on every issue that’s difficult for him.”

Capehart replied, “The President and the Justice Department have made it clear that they believe that the so-called Defense of Marriage Act is un-Constitutional. They’re not supporting it in any of the court cases going through the federal court system.”

Then Capehart repeatedly asked, “Would you support that,” which caused Christie to lash back.

"I used to be a prosecutor. I don’t know if you did too, but I’m not going to be cross-examined by you this morning,” scolded Christie.

Capehart then said, “I’m having fun trying.”

“I know, you’re going to lose,” Christie replied.

“Let’s have the President of the United States show some courage, come on this program, look into the camera like I’m looking into the camera and state his position,” the Governor continued. “He won’t because he wants to have it both ways.”

“I’m not looking to have it both ways,” Christie said. “I vetoed the bill. That’s my position. What I’ve offered to the supporters of same sex marriage is if one of your reasons for why I should have signed it is because you’re telling me the majority of the people in New Jersey want it then prove it. Put it on the ballot and prove it. At least I’m standing up for what I believe in. The President has hidden on this issue, Jonathan, he’s hidden on it. He wants to have it both ways.”

Co-host Mika Brzezinski then asked Capehart, “Would you agree that he hasn’t been as vocal as he could have been on this, and why?”

“Has the President come right out and said, ‘I’m in favor of same sex marriage?’’ responded Capehart. “No. When he’s been asked the question three times now, he said he’s evolving on the issue.”

Christie then responded, “His evolution will end after Election Day 2012 when he has no more political risk. This is the type of political cowardice that we don’t want.”

Harold Ford Jr. jumped into the conversation saying, “I’m with Governor Christie on this. I think the President can’t have it both ways.” .

Did Romney Supporters Take Down Santorum Signs?

Shelby Township MI

Not only did they remove Santorum’s signs, but it appears they were paid to do it. Ro
mney’s tactics are dividing the party so that no one will want to support him if he wins:
***CONTENT WARNING: LANGUAGE***

Update:  We have received numerous responses advising us that one of the workers for Mitt Romney's camp in this video is  Dennis Lennox a former Cheboygan Michigan Drain Commissioner who was forced to resign from office. 

It is unknown what role if any Mr. Lennox played in the Santorum sign removal but it appears Mr. Lennox has been in trouble before.  According to Central Michigan Life, they report  Dennis Lennox has criminal complaint filed against him in Cheboygan County back in early 2010.

 Here is a snippet from the paper: "Cheboygan County Prosecuting Attorney Daryl Vizina has filed a misdemeanor criminal complaint against Topinabee senior and Cheboygan County Drain Commissioner Dennis Lennox II.

According to a press release from Vizina’s office, Lennox sent 250 Christmas cards using Cheboygan County postage, which is paid for by the county. Many of the card included what the release called “campaign literature” relating to Lennox’s campaign for the 105th District seat in the Michigan State House.

The press release said Lennox had been asked to reimburse the county for the cost of the postage, but refused. Lennox later agreed to pay the postage fees, after a criminal investigation had begun. If Lennox is convicted of the allegations, the maximum penalty is a $1,000 fine and a year of incarceration.

“If this was any other citizen we would charge him, so we want to be consistent,” Vizina said. “If a employee at Subway was taking company resources for themselves, we would charge them.”"

read more here : Central Michigan Life: Dennis Lennox has criminal complaint filed


The Not So Lame Media also received this e-mail from a reader:


I'd recommend checking out the Cheboygan County Board of Commissioners meeting from April 26, 2011 in which the Commissioners subpoenaed Dennis to appear. Given that the meeting began at 9:30am and ended at 12:30pm, I daresay that Dennis's testimony took up at least two hours of time. You can check the minutes at the link below:

Cheboygan County 4-26-2011 Meeting Minutes


While the minutes are 18 pages in length, it is well worth the read to understand the frustration that the Commissioners have towards Dennis, and see why they were ready to remove him. One Commissioner tells Dennis that "You, as a conservative taxpayer and drain commissioner feel that you can just spend this money to buy whatever that meets your whim with no consideration to those people." 
 
How can a public official can request per diem expenses for meeting with constituents (pages 11-13), and with posting an unapproved fee schedule on his office door (13-14).

Jake Carney and Jay Tapper clash over ‘aggressive’ reporting

At today’s White House press briefing, Jake Tapper of ABC News bored straight into WH Press Secretary Jay Carney, and it was a thing of beauty. The briefing opened with Carney evincing praise for the two journalists who died last night covering the Syrian popular uprising and resultant government crackdown and oppression, Marie Colvin and Rémi Ochlik as well as the New York Times’ recently deceased, Anthony Shadid. There is little doubt but that Carney, and the White House, have genuine sadness over the deaths. But Carney, on behalf of the White House, was taking it further and using them as shaded vehicle for political posturing and Tapper flat out called him on it. The exchange transcript, from Jake and ABC News:

TAPPER: The White House keeps praising these journalists who are, who've been killed--

CARNEY: I don't know about "keep." I think--

TAPPER: You've done it, Vice President Biden did it in a statement. How does that square with the fact that this administration has been so aggressively trying to stop aggressive journalism in the United States by using the Espionage Act to take whistleblowers to court? You're--currently I think that you've invoked it the sixth time, and before the Obama administration, it had only been used three times in history. You're--this is the sixth time you're suing a CIA officer for allegedly providing information in 2009 about CIA torture. Certainly that's something that's in the public interest of the United States. The administration is taking this person to court. There just seems to be disconnect here. You want aggressive journalism abroad; you just don't want it in the United States.

CARNEY: Well, I would hesitate to speak to any particular case, for obvious reasons, and I would refer you to the Department of Justice for more on that. I think we absolutely honor and praise the bravery of reporters who are placing themselves in extremely dangerous situations in order to bring a story of oppression and brutality to the world. I think that is commendable, and it's certainly worth noting by us. And as somebody who knew both Anthony and Marie, I particularly appreciate what they did to bring that story to the American people. I--as for other cases, again, without addressing any specific case, I think that there are issues here that involve highly sensitive classified information, and I think that, you know, those are--divulging or to--divulging that kind of information is a serious issue, and it always has been.

TAPPER: So the truth should come out abroad, it shouldn't come out here?

CARNEY: Well, that's not at all what I'm saying, Jake, and you know it's not. Again, I can't--specific--

TAPPER: That's what the Justice Department's doing.

CARNEY: Well, you're making a judgment about a broad array of cases, and I can't address those specifically.

TAPPER: It's also the judgment that a lot of whistleblowers' organizations and good government groups are making as well.

CARNEY: Not one that I'm going to make.

That is good work. Clearly Carney was not ready for such a pointed line of questioning, and tried to shine it on by going back and trying to hide behind the fallen reporters. But Jake Tapper was having none of it and kept boring in. It was an example of not needing to get an answer to make a solid point. Frankly, I think it would be a very good thing if there was a lot more of this done in the face of the pablum shoved out daily by government spokesmen, of which the White House Press Shop is merely the most public, and glaring, example.

 Lastly, and this is not a criticism in the least, because I think it is fairly clear Jake tapped Carney out about as far as he could in the exchange today, but I would like to see him, or another reporter, go back at Carney on not just the Obama Administration’s attack on leakers, but the pernicious and chilling attacks on the press themselves. It is an easy out for Carney to say he cannot talk about defendants and cases, but he can sure be questioned about the consistent policy of chilling reporters such as Jim Risen and Siobhan Gorman.

If you really want to show the hypocrisy, there is the story that is not emphasized enough. The Bush DOJ had subpoenaed Risen in the Sterling matter for the grand jury phase, but dropped it when he moved to quash. The Obama Administration, once again going to extremes even the much maligned Bush/Cheney one would not, reinstated the effort to haul Risen in front of a grand jury on Sterling and break his source protection. Judge Leonie Brinkema quashed the effort rather sharply.

But the DOJ has now gone after Risen a third time in their effort to squelch the ability of reporters to interact with sources, and protect the relationship. Even after Brinkema granted limited questioning of Risen at trial, that was not enough, the DOJ has appealed to get more. The thing is, the government does not need more from Risen to try Jeffrey Sterling, and that finding was made and supported well by Judge Brinkema. It is gratuitous and meant to chill the press, not just leakers. It is not just me saying that, it is a coalition of 29 news organizations, including ABC News.

 Jake Tapper clearly flummoxed Carney on the White House press reporters hypocrisy, even if just a bit. A followup round further pointing out the even deeper underlying hypocrisy in the direct attacks on the press would be even better. Thanks to Jake for today, how about a rematch for Round Two?

via http://www.emptywheel.net/2012/02/22/jake-tapper-flummoxes-jay-carney-on-white-house-press-policy-hypocrisy/

Rabbit Hole Runs Deep with Randy Richardville, Bob Ficano, and John Rakolta

This rabbit hole runs much deeper than most realize! John Rakolta is one of the "gang of four" wealthy and politically connected businessmen concoct an elaborate scheme, using their checkbooks and relationships, to secure a taxpayer-funded movie studio for their own personal financial gain.

Also allegedly involved are Alfred Taubman, Linden Nelson CEO of Raleigh Michigan Studios, and Ari Emanuel, who just happens to be the brother of former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, who introduced his brother to Linden Nelson at political events. Since the movie credits and government funding for the studio were a product of an agreement between Governor Granholm and Rahm Emanuel -- both of whom would soon occupy different roles -- the deal had to include a “poison pill” such that any future governor would think twice about getting rid of the film credits and studio funding. The "poison pill" just happens to be Michigan's own Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville.

This is where it gets interesting. Richardville has been lobbied very hard by Nelson, Rakolta and the other partners. Richardville attended the Emmy’s on a trip arranged by Linden Nelson. He also went to a Red Wings game with Nelson in March. While the majority of Republican legislators oppose further funding of the film credits and are outraged by the way the studio was funded with taxpayer money, Richardville is susceptible to “wooing” and is behind the scenes trying to help Nelson and the Gang of Four. He accomplished this by deceiving his colleges on this issue of film producer subsidies and introducing legislation which passed. The film studio folks have hired a slew of lobbyists to cut a deal with Senator Richardville. John Rakolta is paying Scott Romney and the Honigman law firm substantial money to lobby Governor Snyder and the Republican State Senate.

This is the Republican strategy to keep this Democratic deal alive. Interesting information on John Rakolta Jr. is the CEO of Walbridge (formely known as Walbridge Aldinger). He was also one of the National Finance Chairs for Mitt Romney's 2008 Presidential Campaign. Rakolta's wife Terry Rakolta is the sister of Mitt's former sister-in-law Ronna Romney. He was offered the opportunity to be part of a consortium of five Detroit-area businessmen to provide a loan to Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick to convince him to resign so that the scandals he had created would end, but Rakolta declined before it actually happened, so the other four went on with it alone.

Besides his work for the Romney campaign in 2008, Rakolta was a major fundraiser for the Bush campaign in 2004. Most recently he was State Finance Chair for Gov. Rick Snyder of Michigan. Rakolta's daughter Lauren Rakolta was also a major figure in Mitt Romney's campaign and previously had worked for Mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts. She is currently the finance director for Rick Snyder's campaign to be governor of Michigan.

Mitt Romney's National Co-Chair John Rakolta in Cross Hairs Of FBI Corruption Probe

This story is a bomb shell and great investigative work by Charlie Le Duff of Fox2 News Detroit. The link below has more to the story and video shown on the 10pm and 11pm newscast. Here is a snippet of the story as written by Charile LeDuff:

  Mitt’s presidential ambitions may meet their Waterloo in the Big Mitten and if they do, Mitt might have Bob to thank.
That’s because Romney and Bob Ficano, the Wayne County executive who is caught in the crosshairs of an FBI corruption probe, have a certain friend in common -- John Rakolta.

Will Michigan be Mitt Romney's Waterloo?: MyFoxDETROIT.com

Rakolta is a prominent Detroit developer whose company Walbridge won a $300 million contract last summer to build the new Wayne County jail.

In turns out Rakolta is Romney’s co-national finance chairman.

The Rakolta connection couldn’t come at a worse time for Romney, whose commanding lead in his boyhood state of Michigan has shriveled to a statistical tie with Rick Santorum.

The feds are investigating a pattern of pay-to-play in the jail deal and have subpoenaed the county’s records in connection with Walbridge. As it happens, Rakolta has been a contributor to the Democrat Ficano, a member of Ficano’s finance host committee, and a $25,000 contributor to a non-profit business group know as Edge Opportunities that paid Turkia Mullin to lobby the county development czar.

Who was the county development czar in charge of the jail project? Turkia Mullin. She is also a focus of the federal investigation.

We caught Romney on the stump Thursday and asked him about his close friend Rakolta, who remains on his campaign.


“My understanding is he’s helping in the investigation, not a target of it. So there’s no culpability on his side so far as I’m aware,” Romney said. “He’s helping in an investigation as one of the witnesses against potential wrongdoing as far as I understand.”

Well, not exactly.

Rakolta, who for some reason was out of town when Romney appeared in Michigan, sent me this statement:

“The federal government has not contacted Walbridge or me regarding its ongoing investigation of Wayne County, nor have we received any subpoenas.”

Now I went to public school, but it seems to me the two statements just don’t add up.

Is Rakolta a witness? Or a suspect?

Fox 2 legal analyst Charlie Langton says it is common operating procedure that the FBI does not contact subjects of its investigations.

“It appears that the feds are seriously looking at Rakolta as a player in the cozy relationships between county contractors and Bob Ficano.”

It is important to say Rakolta has not been charged with any crime. Nor has Ficano. But the first charges in the corruption scandal came down this week. One of Ficano’s inner circle was charged with extortion of a contractor and obstruction of justice.

When that shoe dropped, Bob came out of his bunker on the 31st floor of the Guardian Building to offer his ham-handed fury.
The fact that Rakolta remains on the Romney campaign speaks to Mitt’s judgment. Walbridge has also been banned for three years from contracts with the Detroit water department because the company is named in indictments against former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick that allege bid-rigging. Walbridge is appealing the ban. If this presidential election can be boiled down to anything it is this: America is in deep trouble. And we all know it is going to take a healthy dose of government involvement to dig us out. But Americans --whether they be Tea Partiers, occupiers or independents -- have a serious disdain for politicians. And Bob Ficano and his gang at the Guardian are increasingly viewed by the electorate and political class as a colony of lepers. Keeping a fundraiser hanging around with the stink of Wayne County smeared on him will do little to inspire the voters on the fence. Bet you 10 grand.


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